[00:00:00] Cassie: Today on True Power, I am delighted to be joined by my dear friend, Candice Smith. Candice, welcome.
[00:00:54] candice: Thank you, Cassie. It's a joy to be here.
[00:00:56] Cassie: It's always a joy to speak with you. We've had so many [00:01:00] wonderful conversations over the years we've known each other, and I'm very excited today to have this conversation and to share it with the world.
[00:01:07] candice: Yes. Phenomenal to see where we might land today, as we always do.
[00:01:12] Cassie: We always get to some interesting, places. So I'll start by introducing you. So you've worked for over two decades to help bring out the innate humanity of individuals and organizations through your coaching, facilitation, and your leadership development work. You bring a really diverse range of lived experience, including having grown up classified as colored. Under the apartheid regime in South Africa and hailing from a lineage of freedom fighters. in South Africa's liberation struggle. And following your career in academic publishing, you transition into facilitation, teaching and coaching, training the thinking environment and actually learning the thinking environment with Nancy Klein, the creator of the thinking environment back in [00:02:00] 2005. and then establishing South Africa's time to think business office in 2008, and then immigrating here to Australia in 2012. And you're currently in Melbourne. And that's where we first met many years ago when you ran a tasting session for the thinking environment in the old NAB co work building in Docklands many, many moons ago.
[00:02:21] Remember that?
[00:02:22] candice: Amazing. Yes. I love the spiral of life, all our various touch points. And here we are.
[00:02:27] Cassie: Yeah, so that's where we first met then more recently you've trained me to become accredited in the thinking environment and we've got to know each other very well through all of those thinking sessions, many tears shed on my behalf through our time together in deep thinking and learning about this amazing practice of the thinking environment.
[00:02:47] And we'll talk more about that later. What else to say about your wonderful work? So I love how you describe what you do, that you help individuals and organization develop sustainable practices to more [00:03:00] deftly navigate the increasingly complex times. we're in and shifting organizations to more inclusive, collaborative cultures. You thrive in partnering with your clients to create environments in which we can think in more systemic and interdependent ways. And you focus here in your work on creating transformational environments by mastering how we're treating ourselves and others and Seeking to access new ways of thinking and being. And of course you are on the time to think faculty, globally, and you regularly teach public courses on the time to think, protocols and, methodologies. And we'll link to of course, your website and your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But what more would you like to add, Candace, about who you are and the wonderful work you do in the world?
[00:03:54] candice: Thank you, Cassie. always extraordinary to hear one story shared [00:04:00] by another. Gosh, I've forgotten that piece about me, the spiral, spiral of life. Yes, I, I do feel that my experience of growing up in a project South Africa has so significantly impacted how I've chosen to focus my, offering in the world and As the apartheid system defined different categories, racial categories, it was really the assumption that one group identity could think better than another group identity.
[00:04:40] Or that in that one particular group identity couldn't think at all and was not even human and so having that as your main operating system, running the show, I think you either get, what's called a [00:05:00] internalized oppression, where you internalize those, of course, untrue beliefs about one group's ability to, be fully human and fully intelligent, or you challenge it.
[00:05:14] And I was very fortunate to grow up in an environment where our families and our social milieu were very much about. You are. Inherently capable and equal in your ability to think as anybody else and never to be discriminating against anybody on the basis of whatever group identity they belong to or didn't belong to.
[00:05:41] And the joy, that ran through, through our communities, it was a radical joy. So, Regardless of the oppressive regime's desire to quell our spirit, there's this, yeah, the indefatigable human spirit, that I [00:06:00] experienced from my grandparents, from my parents, has I think profoundly impacted where I've landed in, in my work.
[00:06:08] Cassie: Thank you for sharing that, Candice. And I think, you know, equality is one of the ten components of a thinking environment and trusting in each individual's capacity to think for themselves and trusting in the equality and the. the truth of our innate intelligence, as humans who can think afresh for themselves. do you remember the moment when you encountered the thinking environment and connected back this way of being and thinking to, as kind of the antidote, I suppose, or the opposite of, what you experienced growing up under the apartheid regime? Like, do you remember the moment when you realized that those two things were so beautifully connected?
[00:06:53] candice: Oh, my goodness, Cassie, what a question. because it is, it's, as you asked it, and you know, in the thinking environment, we [00:07:00] have the saying, the mind thinks best in the presence of a question. And I just had that embodied experience now, of, oh, yes, I remember the exact moment. And, I was very fortunate to experience my first thinking environment immersion with a woman called Margaret Legion, who had been exiled from South Africa, her and her husband for the Anti apartheid activism and she was excelled in the UK and there she was able to learn from Nancy Klein and got trained up as a time to think consultant in the UK.
[00:07:40] After apartheid was dismantled. Her and her husband returned and she was an elder by then they returned to post apartheid South Africa and she was the only person in South Africa who could train thinking environments, and I was so fortunate to receive my first training with her, and it was [00:08:00] in her workshop room that I made that connection with.
[00:08:04] I made it consciously at the time that it was an opportunity to think through a topic. This was part of the workshop, think through a topic that was on my plate at the moment. And as part of that process, I remember connecting With my lineage of my matrilineal lineage of, yes, of my ancestors and the extent, I guess, of perhaps the internalized oppression that might have occurred.
[00:08:34] through their lived experience had been. So that really connected with those who had gone before and what they had sacrificed and what they had gifted me with and had an opportunity to profoundly release that I guess in, in a way that I hadn't, even known I was holding. So that was facilitated through the presence [00:09:00] and incredible quality of listening that was activated.
[00:09:05] in that workshop. So my first experience of being listened to with the quality that is invited in creating a thinking environment for others, which is really shorthand for thinking, feeling, and being environment. That very first, what we call thinking session that I had thinking, feeling, being session.
[00:09:23] I had that embodied experience of, Oh, I'm holding all of this and a deep bow to. my matrilineal line, and that this is a new space that I can be entering now, a post apartheid South Africa, where I can be ushering in new stories, not just for, for women, but for, for all. Thank you for
[00:09:45] that question. I had never made that connection explicitly before.
[00:09:50] Cassie: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for sharing that. I got goosebumps as you were describing that experience. And I'm doing a lot of reading at the moment [00:10:00] about intergenerational trauma and these stories that we carry from generation to generation, that these stories that were never ours, but yet, can be such burdens and also the miracle of noticing these, becoming aware of these stories that we've carried. Generation to generation and releasing those burdens so that we can step into all that we're capable of, our true innate, natural brilliance and potential unshackled and unburdened by all these stories of our past is, is an extraordinary thing.
[00:10:35] candice: Yes, yeah, the gifts and the shadows and the alchemy that can occur when we can stop and notice what has been driving the show and what we can take a step back from and rewrite that narrative. But in the presence of What we call a thinking environment and it was the many different ways of creating spaces for us to reflect on how we can [00:11:00] be going beyond what has been running the running the show.
[00:11:07] Cassie: And, you know, so many of the coaching clients I encounter have some version of that story. Of, I'm not, I'm not smart, I'm not intelligent, I'm not, you know, I had one coaching client, his brother used to tease her about maths, and she'd cry this belief, well, I'm not smart, but if I work really hard, it'll be enough, or. Yeah, I think there's so many, flavors of internalized oppression that, that so many of us carry that,really do weigh us down in, in really significant ways and that, the first step to lightening that load, I suppose, is that, is that, is that The courage to look within and the courage to think about who's come before us and, what those stories might be and, and interrogating the truthfulness of those stories for us now, which is one of the most, I think, powerful aspects of a thinking environment, that capacity to think afresh and [00:12:00] to, um, the assumptions we make about ourselves and the world and to replace these heavy limiting assumptions with something that's lighter and more liberating.
[00:12:10] candice: Yes, and I think that dance towards likeness can Be navigated, quite deftly by recognizing also that those, those oppressive assumptions about the groups that we belong to the kind of, you know, the big isms that we belong to the races and the sexes and the abilities and. All of those, the assumptions that the world makes about those different group ident identities and the assumptions that we make about ourselves as individuals that interplay and that prejudice, all the prejudice in the world primarily is being driven by untrue, limiting assumptions about those groups and when.
[00:12:58] We can [00:13:00] get really forensic around, okay, what are the groups that I identify with? And what does the world assume about those groups? And what are the groups? What are the assumptions that I make about other group identities? And really take a step back from those and get rigorous. Around interrogating those we can move forward systemically.
[00:13:22] So there's, you know, there's of course the work that we can do as individuals, but there's also not bad. And there's the really important work around what systemically is in place to stymie our individual development and removing of assumptions. So yeah, I'm really interested in that interplay as well.
[00:13:42] Cassie: It's so fascinating, right? And my sense is that work of looking within and being curious about what are the assumptions I've kind of absorbed or acquired from my childhood, from those around me about Other group identities, it takes courage to say, [00:14:00] well, yes, I do hold assumptions. I don't think some people might, might like to, try to convince themselves in the world that no, no, I don't have any prejudice.
[00:14:08] I don't have any assumptions. I don't have any bias. And of course that's not true. Right. And so I think there's also courage and humility in that first step, which says, yes, we do have bias. Yes. I do have prejudices, prejudices, prejudiceice. I have absorbed it. in so many ways, I was recently at a, an event called the examined human event, which was part of the Google next event in Las Vegas.
[00:14:32] And we did this amazing exercise where we had this clear perspect sheet with all of these, preferences, culturally influenced preferences on them. And we'd have to put a dot on these various axes and where Where we fell on these preferences, social, personal preferences, preferences in how we think about food and gathering and life. And we walked around the room and we overlaid these clear sheets onto other [00:15:00] people's patterns and preferences. And I had this really Visceral experience of noticing my eyeballs were looking for where my dots overlapped with other people's dots, you know,
[00:15:09] candice: Yes.
[00:15:09] Cassie: was, was searching, scanning for sameness, which
[00:15:13] is, which was a really profound experience for me because cognitively I knew about affinity bias.
[00:15:18] I know that. Where, you know, there's part of our brain that's searching for people who are like us from this very primal kind of survival instinct. But until I had that lived experience, it was a, it was a big moment for me to think, yeah, gosh, I'm scanning for, for sameness. My brain isn't actually naturally curious about, okay, let me put this sheet over and notice how this human's different to me and have a conversation about that.
[00:15:42] My first instinct was to try to figure out what was. what was similar or familiar about this person. That was a really interesting experience.
[00:15:51] candice: yeah, embodied. It feels like very embodied. Oh, here we go. This is, this is me going to, to try and put myself [00:16:00] into that towards state rather than avoid state. Yeah. Scanning for, for safety, which to our brain looks like sameness. and yeah, rewiring those old neural pathways to sites. Different is safe.
[00:16:20] Cassie: Yeah, noticing the bias and then yeah, rewriting that script, that difference is safe, difference is vital, difference,
[00:16:28] diversity,
[00:16:29] divergence of thinking is so essential, you know, now more than ever, you know, this beautiful quote from Jane Houston, which says something like we need the particular genius in the, in the gatherings. Of all cultures now more than ever, we need this diversity, this richness, this divergence of thinking and being and lived experience to come together. so yes, I think it's a very big topic and one that I think is often not adequately explored and addressed in the corporate world in my [00:17:00] experience.
[00:17:02] candice: that you hone in on that, Cassie B. I was just thinking about the, one of the 10 components of a thinking environment. And we always say, yes, there are 10 components, but please can we find the 11th one? Because people get confused and think it's the 10 something else's.the 10 components being the ways of treating each other.
[00:17:26] And ourselves that we've noticed in the research that's occurred for the thinking environment need to be present in order for us to be thinking well and thinking together. So what makes the most difference we've found in How well we are able to think and if we, we recognize that everything we do depends on the quality of the thinking that we do about it first, what is going to enable high quality thinking, we need to get intentional about how we are treating [00:18:00] each other.
[00:18:00] So it's the space. Between us, that's how we're relating to each other. That really is the game changer for the quality of our thinking, which of course impacts the quality of our outcomes, which is what we all are looking for. What's the Einstein quote? We can't solve the problems we have at the same level of thinking that created it.
[00:18:25] So how do we change the level of thinking? We change how we are showing up with each other. And so the 10 components are 10 ways of showing up with each other that can make a really profound difference. One of those components is called difference. And up until a few years ago, it was called diversity.
[00:18:46] That component was the component of diversity. And Nancy He and us as faculty decided after much, thinking, surprise, surprise, that, Was no longer the word diversity was no [00:19:00] longer doing that way of treating each other justice because the word diversity has become so diluted and meaningless, really, no longer honoring its true, true meaning.
[00:19:12] And so that component got renamed. So rather than diversity, it's been renamed. As difference and it hones in on committing to freedom from the untrue assumptions driving prejudice. That's how we see that component, shifting the quality of thinking is if we can be committed to creating environments where we can get intentional around and true limiting assumptions about group identities, as opposed to diversity is making sure we have different group identities in the room. which is really not going deep enough. And the tragedy that has now ensued with diversity programs are being [00:20:00] systematically dismantled.
[00:20:03] What might, might occur if we were to instead, excuse me, hone in on the group identity piece. And true assumptions driving. that prejudice than let's just have different people in the room.
[00:20:17] Cassie: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. There's so much more work to do and let's hope that, not all organizations are going to follow that latest trend of dismantling diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging initiatives and programs. and that we think are fresh about what, what these programs need to. The outcomes they need to deliver and the way we go about doing that.
[00:20:42] So So we'll definitely include links to the thinking environment in the show notes and the 10 components that we're talking about. and the recent episode I had with our other colleague, Kathy Duval, also talks a lot about the thinking environment. So, I think such a beautiful. [00:21:00] Theme that we will share all the information for any listeners who are curious to learn more and on that note I'd love to now shift the focus Candace to you and to your story and your lived experience and I'd love to invite you to share a Story about a time in your life when you realize that you were not being true to yourself
[00:21:21] candice: Thanks for the fabulous question, Cassie.today what feels most alive around that inquiry is when, when I felt compelled to transition from one career to To the next. And I, since a little girl, I had wanted to be involved in publishing in some way. And it always, yeah, always loved books and reading and had been.
[00:21:52] I was very, very fortunate to land a magnificent [00:22:00] publishing job straight out of uni in a very, very new post apartheid South Africa. And yeah, I really could not believe that I, managed to get that role at that time and had the most incredible few years with that as the social context. Publishing at a time, it was educational publishing, academic publishing, so publishing for transforming South Africa, transforming the education system, literacy programs, harvesting stories, from diverse communities in, in South Africa and publishing those and just an exceptional, exceptional experience of, of the publishing world.
[00:22:47] And fast forward to a few years later, I've had a, yeah, I guess a transformation, a personal transformation. as I was exploring [00:23:00] spirituality and personal development and, and just having, having a shift, and to my horror realized, oh, I have to leave my beloved because I've accessed some more parts of me that are not going to be of service in, in a publishing container.
[00:23:27] And so I didn't have any of this language at the time. It was just this feeling of, oh my goodness, I'm not, there's something I need to be doing in the world. And I need to. I need to move on. And it felt like, yeah, it felt like breaking up with a very beautiful partner that I now had to, to go to new shores.
[00:23:52] And that was primarily because. The work I was doing was, yes, it was very [00:24:00] much serving the, yeah, transformation in South Africa and informing policy and, incredible colleagues and incredible organizations and, um, so struck by what was occurring in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission at the time.
[00:24:17] So the process that was headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu to attempt to heal the Human rights abuses that had occurred during apartheid, where there was really deep listening, at an epic scale happening to the survivors and the family members of those abuses, and Was struck by the potential for healing that could occur at that level in our country and how more of that could perhaps place because there was this very important focus on how to transform at [00:25:00] a, economic and social delivery.
[00:25:04] An educational level and the very little space for healing our trauma and transforming the space between. And I wanted to be a part of, of that piece. How can we transform our human relationships, our. Way of being with each other in order to shift all those other really important pieces to the economic, the social and educational, how do we heal our, our traumatized selves?
[00:25:37] I didn't have that language at the time. I can look back now and, and, and describe it as that. But when I felt I wasn't being true to myself, that was something new. No, wouldn't say niggling, like burning inside. There's work to be done. I need to be of service in that space. I have no idea how I'm going to be of service in that space, but I have to go and find out how and, and [00:26:00] publishing has been one beautiful step in my evolution to, to that next phase.
[00:26:07] And how do I let go in order to let the new come? So that was a very uncomfortable place to be. And I give thanks that you have for all the incredible guides that showed up, including Margaret Legion, who trained me in the thinking environment the first time in order to take the next step.
[00:26:27] Cassie: Thank you for sharing that story. and I'm curious about if we just slow down that between the moment when you realize there's more and this, this container that I'm in is in some way diminishing or constraining that more ness, that's not a word, that this expansion that I sense is occurring for my capacity to serve on a greater good, on a larger scale and the, the way that your current. Role and industry was not [00:27:00] congruent with that potential. Do you recall like what the first steps you took towards letting go, shedding that, that system, that role so that you could step into something bigger? what what were the first little tentative steps you took towards that, do you remember?
[00:27:20] candice: Yes, I had, had lots of conversations. The one that I see as where it was really a fork in the road is I went to speak to a, an incredible coach and author and facilitator and she listened to my story and she said, You one of 6 percent of people in the world who operate in this way. And so I advise you to go and do two things.
[00:27:52] And what she meant by that was she's an integral specialist, the work of Ken [00:28:00] Morber, and she was looking at adult stages. She was in, again, adult stages of development and the different, levels of consciousness, I guess you could say. And, because my inquiry was, was an integral one was how can we be serving South Africa in a way, which is not only looking at the external, how can we be looking at.
[00:28:20] How we transform our really our consciousness is another word for our way of being in our internal world as individuals and as, as a collective. So that's why she was using that 6 percent or 3 percent or whatever it was that she would say, was, designating with, I didn't understand any of it at the time, but anyway, something in the way she shared this information made me go, okay, what are those two things?
[00:28:46] And off I went and it was to learn the thinking environment and to do a coaching qualification. A remarkable coaching school in Cape [00:29:00] Town, which was one of the first integral coaching programs, I think in the world, that was nearly 20 years ago. And so that really set me on solid ground for the new chapter to be ushered in.
[00:29:15] And the person who I learned the thinking environment from was Margaret Legion.
[00:29:20] Margaret was her, her teacher, my wise guide who pointed me in the right direction.
[00:29:26] Cassie: wow. Isn't that fascinating that I didn't expect your answer to be that someone was so directive with you. that, you know, that was pretty much advice giving, right? this is some key piece of information, which information's a component. So missing information that you are at the top of this level of consciousness.
[00:29:46] I know the model you mean, like someone who's thinking meta, meta, meta, who self awareness, think, I don't know if it's self actualization. I'm trying to remember the levels, but I know what you're referring to. So you're, you're at this. you, you have the capacity [00:30:00] to change at the work, at the systemic level, which is rare. so she gave you that key piece of information, which you lacking, but then she was very directive and prescriptive advice, giving do this and this, which you, you, she went and did. how fortunate that you had that conversation. And I wonder if you would have, Come to the same conclusion, but on your own, if, if she hadn't been so directive, what do you think?
[00:30:23] Because it's,
[00:30:24] candice: Yes. So absolutely. There was, that's the very edited shortened version to get to the readiness place, obviously to be able to find her. And so they were preceding that I had to have the courage to resign from my job, not knowing. A thinking environment or coaching or leadership development even existed.
[00:30:51] So the courage to go, this is no longer fitting, something new is needing to be accessed. I don't know what that [00:31:00] is, but I'm going to Resign from my full time role and so had a transition time where I was freelancing and doing, more flexible work in order to explore what might that new look like, which included having all of these conversations and finding, finding the The wise ones who could offer that information, but they had been, and they had been lots of reflection time.
[00:31:30] That's
[00:31:31] on my own.
[00:31:32] Cassie: so the guidance, yeah, so the soil had been tilled so that information and guidance came and you were, it was congruent with what you'd already figured out and off you went and what fabulous advice or, you Guide what fabulous guidance that was and I am personally very grateful for that coach and that you did go and learn the thinking environment because I'm one of, I think, hundreds of thousands of people who have benefited from your wisdom and [00:32:00] your mastery of this particular way of being and thinking and feeling.
[00:32:05] So I would like to pay my appreciation to that coach.
[00:32:08] candice: Thank you, Cassie. And that's Dr. Dorian Akin, who also has an amazing book. Out on integral leadership and refers to the thinking environment a lot so deep bow from Cassie and I to Darian Aiken for all that she's done to share the thinking environment in the world and a deep bow to Margaret Legion who was yeah passed also about 15 years ago the elder that brought the thinking environment to the world.
[00:32:37] South Africa now. Yeah, I could share it here because of Kathy Duvall's invitation to bring the thinking environment to Australia. So we, we give thanks for the lineage.
[00:32:50] Cassie: Yes, all these exceptional women, pioneers. So thank you so much, Candice, for all that you shared as always. It's, [00:33:00] I always just feel so calm and grounded and so. Yeah, at ease in your presence. And I really appreciate all that you've shared. and I know that for sure that a lot of listeners will, benefit greatly from, from the stories you've shared, from the, the way you've described the thinking environment. Is there anything else you'd like to share or say before we wrap up this conversation for now?
[00:33:28] candice: Well, Cassie, you are One of that lineage of incredible women. So I would like to say thank you from myself and everybody listening for all the tending you've done to create thinking, feeling, being environments. Even before you came across the work that's explicitly called that, and
[00:33:54] Tending of community of practice [00:34:00] as well. So thank you.
[00:34:02] Cassie: Thank you so much, Candice, learning the thinking environment from you, being introduced to it all those years ago at the old NAB co working has certainly changed my life and for the better. And I'm very, very grateful. So thank you so much. I look forward to our next
[00:34:19] candice: Yeah. Yep. There's more.
[00:34:22] Always.
[00:34:23] Cassie: You
[00:34:23] candice: too. Go well. [00:35:00]
